USB vs Ethernet?

[Ethanoost]

Hi everyone
I am in the planning stage of building my 737 sim. Im using prosim. I have many real 737 parts I plan to integrate into my sim.
At the moment Im researching IO card and planning the wiring setup. Im looking at pokeys, phidget and maybe FDS sys cards.
Any advice on whether to use USB or Ethernet to connect the whole thing up? I guess USB is easier, but also a lot more sensitive. I heard stories of it disconnecting all the time.
What is people's experience with either?
CHeers
Ethan

[NedH]

I have a full cockpit sim with Sismo Soluciones overhead, MIP, Pedestal, etc all run over Ethernet. My yoke, throttle quadrant, and FDS run over USB. Over the past year with the Ethernet connections I have absolutely zero connection issues. With the 4 USB connections I have USB connection issues several times per week. Mostly disconnects that are simple to fix. But also "lost" GUID and device numbers. The USB issues occur on both XP and Windows 7.

Also I have been a programmer for 40 years and I would never ever use USB protocols for any application--never.

[wkrp2005]

Hi Ned,

This may be a stupid question, but how does one configure connections from USB to Ethernet.  I'm always having USB issues and it bugs the heck out me..

Unfortunately, all my IO cards are USB connections

Thanks
Keith

[jackpilot]

Not  stupid at all ...., even if I have no prob (so far) with my USBs I was about to ask the same question 

Jack

[NedH]

I don't know of any way to convert from USB to Ethernet short of changing your IO boards on your hardware.

[Sudden81]

The only card I have not hade any problems with is FDS SYS-1X card. Every other there is issues, Leobodnar, Opencockpits, Pokeys, GoFlight.

So my strong recommendation is SYS-1X for inputs and outputs.

But I am interested in trying Pokeys 56E (ethernet). Any thoughts?

[blueskydriver]

Hey Guys,

From my experience, it seems that most USB issues are caused by three things. The first is incorrect USB compatibility. There are 5 different USB modes over the history of USB itself (see here for explanation http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Version_history ).

The problem arises from not matching them throughout your setup. Let's say your computer has 2.0 and 3.0 ports, you use a powered hub that is. 1.1 and your IO cards are 2.0. Also, let's assume you plug the hub into the 3.0 of the computer because you don't know which one is which. So, your hub is slowing the cards down because it's 1.1, and the cards might be able to handle the 1.1, but they're not designed for that type. Then your computer has to deal with backwards compatibility from 3.0 to 1.1. My point is things are spending more time converting data then actually transmitting it. What should be done is to insure all items are the same type throughout.

Next, there are issues with powered hubs and connected items drawing 5 volts and a certain amount of Amps from it. Items like radio panels and etc, that have 7 segment displays get their power from the USB, in fact FDS items (and other companies' items), like Overhead, MIP and Pedestal Annunciators all use the USB port to power all those leds. It's a perfect design the way they do it, but you the builder must understand that the big factor is Amps being drawn. Look up the amount Amps that a powered USB has available before just connecting everything. The real issue is don't overload your powered hub...use more then one hub and balance load everything.

The third item is the actual USB drivers being used. Yes, the computer's OS system has drivers for USB ports, even those that are directly a part of the motherboard. Let's assume the drivers all work just fine, but one day they start acting up. My first guess is that a Windows update changed the drivers somehow; it's happened to me in the past, before I turned off automatic updates. So, when things go weird check the drivers via Device Manager>USB listings. If you can, try a system restore or driver rollback to see if that fixes it. I will add to this by saying that some IO cards use certain programs to work with the drivers better, so make sure you ask the card manufacture about this.

Best Regards,

John

[NedH]

The USB power issues are not the most serious problems with USB devices. Power problems and hub issues can be easily solved and once solved they don't crop up again. The serious problems that plague USB hardware where flight sims are involved are the ones that are sporadic. And to be fair the problems are not difficult to solve, it's just that they are random that's the problem.

The USB drivers problem is not due to the boards but to Windows itself. Windows does not do a very good job of keeping a consistent track of USB devices plugged in to the computer. Here is just one example of the problems with USB devices that is described on the Prosim Forum: http://prosim737.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7488

Before you make a commitment to the kinds of hardware you want in your sim, please read all the forums (Prosim, MyCockpit, and this one) discussions about hardware and USB versus Ethernet before you go down one path or another. Also you will have to take into consideration the hardware vendor. There are more USB hardware solutions than Ethernet (I think because USB is easier to implement) but in my opinion Ethernet is the better route.

[Sam Llorca]

I think you can only go USB or Ethernet, in my case I have all my hardware USB with the exception of the Sismo Forward Overhead that is Ethernet and all the IO cards up there are Ethernet non of them have an USB plug, but I never experienced any hardware disconnect on the overhead like the others USB connections. I strongly believe that Ethernet is more reliable.

[727737Nut]

Pokeys57E hands down the winner. Ethernet and very easy to interface and powerful!  I have 2 and will be ordering 2 more.  FSSymphony and SIOC are my software choice to use them or if you can program, FSX, P3D, and X-plane all can use them with some scripts

Rob

[blueskydriver]

In regards to the USB vs Ethernet question, I would add that you will need network cables. If you can make them yourself you should or at least order them in bulk to save money. I got a great deal from "ShowMeCables" (a dealer in the US; I am not affiliated with them)...

I agree with Ned that once you determine its a Powered Hub, you shouldn't have any issues, but do make sure everything is the same in regards to compatibility. I had all the problems in the world with the USB disconnects, but once I replaced my powered hub and made sure everything was the same, I never had another problem at all, nor any random disconnects within the Windows 7 OS. Albeit, my simulator computer is not getting the Windows Updates anymore, and I don't use it for anything else whatsoever.

In fact, I highly recommend that all your sim computer(s) only be used for the sim, as there are so many problems that can develop from other non-relating software/hardware that's installed/connected. And, with Windows it can be a real pain in the tail feathers. Here is an ironic situation for you, the computer I am using at this very moment, that i just turned on less then 5 minutes ago, comes up with a Device Unknown in the USB listings. When I shutdown the computer last night, it was working fine; however, this computer has Windows Update turned on and an update was done automatically at shutdown. So, even though this is not my simulator computer, it just proves that Windows does things that you won't know until you get there...lol.

I guess my posting on the topic made my computer unhappy with me...or, Microsoft saw it and said "Oh yeah, you dis Windows, we'll fix you buddy"...lol!  Now, I gotta figure out what happened...uuuggghhh!

John

Edit: I just re-read some of the early postings about going from USB to Ethernet. I'd like to know that as well...

[RayS]

I used to have annoying USB issues as well... Tons of them... Random dropouts, devices that refuse to connect...

Then I went industrial-grade. They are a bit pricy but in exchange you get a lot more reliability out of a commercial USB powered hub.
http://www.usbfirewire.com/parts/rr-usb2-hub7.html

I've also just started experimenting with ethernet and X-Plane. By far it's a simpler solution. I have a plug-in installed in my X-Plane installation which allows X-Plane to communicate via UDP (Ethernet) to any ethernet device configured to extract UDP data.

In a nutshell, I have an Arduino 256-Mega connected to X-plane via an ethernet daughterboard. The only thing I need USB for is to upload code changes to the Arduino.

[NedH]

John makes a good point about keeping your sim PC clean from Windows updates. Once everything is working, turn off windows updates.

[FredK]

Hmmmm....maybe I am just lucky....and maybe I'm am challenging fate harking on this......

All my USB connections work very reliably.....I can't remember when and if I ever had a disconnect.  Perhaps my success has to do with the following:

(1) My Sim runs on a distributed setup....that is, 7 computers (4 for visuals and 3 for SimA). That thins the communication streams out.
(2) I use no USB hubs....all USB connections are directly into a computer (yes, that is a lot of wiring)
(3) I have taken care to minimize distance as much as possible to the computers (no USB cable run is longer than 15 feet)

My USB connections include 2 FDS SYS Boards, 2 FDS CDUs, 1 FDS OH Elec display, 4 PFC rudder/yokes, 1 OC MotorsPlus card, 1 CPFlight MCP/MIP board, 2 Flight Illusion Guage interfaces, 1 ATC headset

All my computers are for dedicated Sim use. I do routinely run Windows updates (maybe not a good idea though).

Fred

[NedH]

Hmmmm....maybe I am just lucky....and maybe I'm am challenging fate harking on this......

All my USB connections work very reliably.....I can't remember when and if I ever had a disconnect.  Perhaps my success has to do with the following:

(1) My Sim runs on a distributed setup....that is, 7 computers (4 for visuals and 3 for SimA). That thins the communication streams out.
(2) I use no USB hubs....all USB connections are directly into a computer (yes, that is a lot of wiring)
(3) I have taken care to minimize distance as much as possible to the computers (no USB cable run is longer than 15 feet)

My USB connections include 2 FDS SYS Boards, 2 FDS CDUs, 1 FDS OH Elec display, 4 PFC rudder/yokes, 1 OC MotorsPlus card, 1 CPFlight MCP/MIP board, 2 Flight Illusion Guage interfaces, 1 ATC headset

All my computers are for dedicated Sim use. I do routinely run Windows updates (maybe not a good idea though).

Fred

I think you are just lucky:
(1) My sim runs on 7 computers also
(2) I use no USB hubs
(3) My USB cables are less than 6 feet long
All my computers are dedicated sim use-- nothing else. I do windows update on only one of my 7 PCs and then only once every few months.

Yet I have USB problems every week.

So two sim users with very different experiences.

I guess my conclusion from this is that in this technology age it's disappointing that any of us are having problems at all. None of the things we are doing is stretching the technology envelope!

[navymustang]

My home 737-800 sim uses the entire suite of Sismo Ethernet I/O cards and panels.  100% satisfied.

[NedH]

My home 737-800 sim uses the entire suite of Sismo Ethernet I/O cards and panels.  100% satisfied.

Nice to know there other Sismo users in the states.

[727737Nut]

I will add another    I want to add that if you are using X-plane then the awesome USB TeensyLC and 3.1 can NOT be beat for power and price.27 to 34 at 12bit I/O 48 to 96Mhz processor, Multi thread optimization, and Native (NON windows crap) USB the way  its supposed to be.  You can unplug while sim is running and plug back in a different port takes off working instantly! 11.65 to 19.95 in price!      For fsx/P3D, ethernet is the way.

Rob

[Joe Lavery]

I have a full set of radio heads from Go-Flight, in addition to my FDS SYS boards in the overhead, I also have a couple of Bodnard boards, some Phidgets boards and a couple of OC boards to drive my CDU's. So I do suffer from the occasional "bing bong" as some of them reset or disappear. 
What I would like to know is how I could use Ethernet instead of USB, is that possible? IF so I've not come across this before.

Cheers
Joe.

[Sam Llorca]

Hi Joe,

You'll have to change a few things like the I/O boards, etc and use a script to load them up later, maybe this could help...

http://www.sismo-soluciones.com/index.php/shop/electronic-boards

Cheers,

[Joe Lavery]

Thanks Sam it does look like a solution, although it would need a major rewire on practically the whole cockpit.
So I think I'll see about getting some higher quality USB Hubs. I don't fancy starting all over again... 

All the best Sam,
Joe.

[Sam Llorca]

Agreed, that's what I did, purchased commercial USB hubs and changed the avionics software, after that my USB disconnects disappeared.

Nice talking to you, take care!

[fly_ebos]

I'm using Pokeys 56E, so much more stable through ethernet then usb.
No more dropouts.

[jr2mey]

RayS,

Thank you for that link!!!  As I am not even remotely a programmer and so trying to change over to Ethernet would be a daunting task to say the least. I just ordered 3 of the industrial hubs from you link!

This whole discussion has been very educational and insightful!!!